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 Post subject: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:28 am 
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Hey guys I've been thinking about how to do TRoS combat in a Play by Post game, not just for Grettir's, but also for a game I am considering running myself (probably after Grettir's or atleast not until his is well established).

So, this is the Thread for any and all discussion on how to handle TRoS combat in a Play by Post game. It is also here for Test Combats.

So, first things first, how do we handle Initiative?
My initial thoughts are perhaps someone is delegated to ref Initiative, then all those who are involved send their Red or White die to them thru PM, then the Iniative Ref reveals? Perhaps too slow?

Maybe there is a program that could be used, something like you type [hide]Red[/hide] or [hide]White[/hide], then the opponent does like wise, once all dice are thrown the Ref can type a reveal code or something?

Do people play Paper, Scisors, Rock online?

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:30 am 
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Don't know about initiative, but the rest seems simple. Aggressor posts 5 die cut to Zone II. Defender declares a 6 dice defense using shield. Now, usually there's one more post needed where the Aggressor says: "no feint" .. then the referee makes the rolls as posts the result.

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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:32 am 
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I'd probably go either with PMs or with description: if you would have picked red, simply state that you're attempting to land the first blow. I know the latter means that one person has to pick first, but if we can assume some maturity and IC/OOC separation on the part of the players, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:38 am 
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higgins wrote:
Don't know about initiative, but the rest seems simple. Aggressor posts 5 die cut to Zone II. Defender declares a 6 dice defense using shield. Now, usually there's one more post needed where the Aggressor says: "no feint" .. then the referee makes the rolls as posts the result.


You don't think that that would take too long? Maybe just an agreement that any character who gets into combat will most X amounts of posts per day until Combat is resolved.

Other wise it could take FOUR Days to make one cut, then another FOUR Days to make the second cut, this would be dreadfully slow.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:41 am 
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Hector wrote:
I'd probably go either with PMs or with description: if you would have picked red, simply state that you're attempting to land the first blow. I know the latter means that one person has to pick first, but if we can assume some maturity and IC/OOC separation on the part of the players, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.


This is always an option, though it takes some of the bite out of combat, noone will throw Red after someone else did if they know the other guy is faster.

One option I was thinking was we keep it random? As in the GM says throw initiative, and everyone rolls 1d10, Odds they attack, evens they defend, the only exception wouldbe if you are attacked, as in NPC1 draws his sword and advances upon you, then you can choose to attack or defend.

Thoughts?

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:20 am 
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Just a quick one on this subject.

Combat has the potential to destroy any game in this format. Combat requires so many decisions that even at three posts per day you are looking at combats taking many days to resolve. The medium of play-by-post almost requires a level of abstraction in order for the combat side of the game to be playable.

Keep in mind that our players span Europe, the US and Australia. With timezones that disparate it is unlikely that everyone will be online at the same time consistently. In addition, there will be days where individuals won't be able to post. Maybe even several consecutive days.

The game shouldn't pause because one character is involved in a combat that happens to take a week of real-time to resolve. The other players will want to move on if they are not in the fight scene...

So I simply suggest you take the practicalities into account when you discuss how combat will work in this game. Look at how many decisions you and your opponents have to make during a duel and how that would be conveyed in a play-by-post environment.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:41 am 
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The one good thing about TRoS combat as far as Play by Post is concerned is that a fight generally doesnt last more than a few rounds.

I still think the best option is to aquire anyone who gets into combat to make a minimum of X-amount of posts per day until combat is resolved. The reason for this is something I just though of recently. If we are going to play a game of TRoS on the TRoSfans site then I think we should really try and showcase tis combat system. When someone who plays D&D comes over to check out TRoS and see these fighters pulling off Counters, and Feints, and Stop Shorts, Evasive Attacks etc. etc. they might begin to question there own game of d20.

So for the reason of portraying TRoS in its best light I'm willing to enter a Social Contract that says I'll post a minimum of 6 posts per day if I am involved in combat.

Another thing that is good about TRoS combat, is it seldom occurs, one considers all his options before rawing a blade and wadeing into the thick of it.

Something that might help speed it up also, is a Template that everyone follows. Followed by the descriptive text.

So thoughts?

I know it seems difficult, for all the reasons Ian posted, and for that reason abstract combat seems better, but in an attempt to portray one of TRoS's best features in a good light I'd like to try and run it properly.

If someone would be willing to do a couple of Test duels using say the Soldier from OBaM then we could get a feel for how long a fight takes.

Also, anyone got ideas for a good template we can use?

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:43 am 
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It would be nice to have a forum with built in tools to facilitate combat for play by post play. For instance secretly declaring dice color, feint status etc. I am pretty good with PHP, as doing enterprise development with PHP is part of my job duties if there is any interest in modding the forums or creating a separate web app to achieve this let me know I would be interested in helping out.


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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:44 am 
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Sounds excellent to me, though I don't know nearly enough about these things :D but anyway, welcome to the boards mate!!

Cheers!

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"It was hard-fought, a desperate affair that could have gone badly; if God had not helped me, the outcome would have been quick and fatal" (115) ~ Beowulf after defeating Grendle's Mother.


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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:40 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Combat has the potential to destroy any game in this format. Combat requires so many decisions that even at three posts per day you are looking at combats taking many days to resolve. The medium of play-by-post almost requires a level of abstraction in order for the combat side of the game to be playable.

Absolutely. That's why I wrote already in my opening post agreeing to referee a game that for combat I would "probably come up with something that’s more abstract".

I have already given some thought to the matter, and while I don't propose to have an ultimate solution I will most certainly do away with stances and all maneuvers and am currently thinking about ways to take the abstraction still further. I have already thought of a system to replace the red/white dice.

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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:44 am 
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Crow Caller wrote:
So for the reason of portraying TRoS in its best light I'm willing to enter a Social Contract that says I'll post a minimum of 6 posts per day if I am involved in combat.


This shows great commitment to the game CC but the issues is that your 6 posts need to have your opponents six posts alternating. With the time difference I just can't see there being enough overlap of time.

For myself, I'd prefer Grettir to abstract any of Pac's combats into a single description of what happened based upon a single roll of the CP.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Yeah...I'm moving this week (I'll get my character in shortly, promise!) and I was gone all weekend, so I think that I'll only be able to participate in a meaningful fashion if combat is pretty abstracted.

Frankly, I'd be fine with a system where you describe roughly how you want to go about fighting, then the GM either runs the combat on his own and reports back to us or otherwise solves it, having taken into account the player's wishes on how he wants the combat to run.

Sure, it's not really TROS without the combat, but I think that's okay.

Jake

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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:46 pm 
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The question becomes how many posts on average per combat is to many? My thought was to have one post per exchange per participant is this to many?


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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:57 pm 
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BenC wrote:
The question becomes how many posts on average per combat is to many? My thought was to have one post per exchange per participant is this to many?

This would in my opinion depend on how many post-exchanges one has per day, which in turn depends on exactly when the participants are online. For the game we are currently preparing on these boards I know that posting back and forth frequently will be more of a problem with some than with others; it’s a matter of the hours we are keeping. With at least half the players involved it would be wishful thinking to hope for more than two post-exchanges, i.e. a total of four posts, per day. That would make for one day per combat round, definitely much too slow a pace for my taste.

Jake Norwood wrote:
Frankly, I'd be fine with a system where you describe roughly how you want to go about fighting, then the GM either runs the combat on his own and reports back to us or otherwise solves it, having taken into account the player's wishes on how he wants the combat to run.

I’m not at all fine with having to decide, over several combat rounds, just how many dice a player should a lot to his character’s maneuvers. Characters can after all die in combat, and I don’t want to be responsible for that, but I also don’t want to hold back.

Instead of running several rounds of combat all on my own, I will instead somehow ask for a player’s general directives as to the aggressiveness or caution of his character and then resolve the entire combat by one roll of the opposing CPs, modified for weapon TNs, weapon reach, use of a shield, etc. Like you said yourself:
Jake Norwood wrote:
Sure, it's not really TROS without the combat, but I think that's okay.

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 Post subject: Re: TEST COMBAT.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:19 pm 
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BenC wrote:
The question becomes how many posts on average per combat is to many? My thought was to have one post per exchange per participant is this to many?


For this particular play-by-post this would be impractical but for future games this would be the way to go. In essence, we need the bbcode system that we have for the dice rolling to be expanded to account for all the normal TRoS combat decision-making.

For this game -- and any others where the players are in significantly different time zones -- the combat will have to be abstracted away from the exchange-by-exchange method to a more practical approach where there are 1 - 3 posts per combat. In essence, like a TRoS combat at the gaming table, there will be one post per in-camera period of combat for the character.

It might be good to have this handled through bbcodes as well, where you have a bbcode that describes you attitude for the next period of combat. So instead of red/white for aggressive/defensive you have an array of possible attitudes -- cautious, blind fury, fearful, reckless, defensive, determined, panache, and so on. You select one of these and only you and the referee can see what you have chosen. When all choices are in the referee describes the combat based on the selected attitudes.

The attitudes could cover first exchange/second exchange CP splits, manouvre spreads, and so on. So Blind Fury might translate to 90%/10% CP split, red die, and the most difficult attacking manoeuvre available. It would also help the referee describe the action.

Regards,

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